Lynden border crossing wait time

How long is the southern border? September 17, 2022 North America travel. The total length of the national border is 1,954 miles (3,145 km). On July 28th 2022, the Biden administration announced it would fill four wide gaps in Arizona near Yuma, an area with some of the busiest corridors for illegal crossings.

Lynden border crossing wait time. Peak Wait Times For Thanksgiving / Black Friday. Generally speaking, you will find that traffic during normally mild periods resembles peak commute hour traffic. Waits of 2 hours or more at major crossings will occur at many points throughout the week. The heaviest traffic on will be on Wednesday before the holiday, and again on Sunday.

Pedestrians can cross at both the Cross Border Xpress and the PedEast crossing. San Ysidro pedestrian wait times are usually between 5 minutes and 25 minutes at PedWest though this can be longer since the PedWest crossing shut. There is often no wait at the Cross Border Express, which has around 15 pedestrian lanes.

Douglas border crossing hours. The Douglas border is open 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The Douglas AZ port of entry is particularly busy. As a result, the average wait time is 45 minutes, but at peak times the wait extends over an hour.General Lanes: At 9:00 pm MST 0 min delay 2 lane (s) open. Ready Lanes: N/A. Border Notice : A Ready Lane is now open at the San Luis Port of Entry from 6:00 until midnight. Go to www.getyouhome.gov for more information on Ready Lanes. Tune in to AM 530 for border crossing information.Wait Times at the Peace Arch Border Crossing. Estimated wait time to reach the inspection booth. Updated hourly. Entering the U.S. at Peace Arch - Open 24 hrs/day. Last Update: At 7:00 am PDT. 4/23/2024. Entering Canada at Peace Arch. Last Update: 2024-04-23 06:15 PDT. Personal Vehicles.The longest time I’ve ever waited at the Aldergrove exit is about half an hour. I crossed a couple weeks ago when the Jays and Taylor Swift weekend was happening and even that only took 20 minutes. Best to go early if you’re not wanting to wait long.The Eastport - Kingsgate Border Crossing is open 24/7. Around 400 vehicles travel through this port of entry daily. Typically, there is no wait time or delay when using this border crossing. At the most, you'll get a 15-minute delay. If you want to get current wait times on the Eastport ID border crossing, you can download the CanBorder app ...North Dakota. North Dakota shares a 310-mile border with the provinces of Saskatchewan and Manitoba, Canada. There are 18 border crossings found along this line, only three of which operate 24/7. The busiest port of entry in North Dakota is the Pembina - Emerson border crossing. It also ranks as one of the top 5 busiest ports along the US ...

Current Wait: 0 min At 3:00 am EDT, 2 lanes open. Average Wait: 0 min. Add to Favorites. Graph. Table. More... Line Chart. Bar Chart. Time of Day Wait Time (min) Hourly Wait Times Trend vs Current Average Today Midnight 1 am 2 am 3 am 4 am 5 am 6 am 7 am 8 am 9 am 10 am 11 am Noon 1 pm 2 pm 3 pm 4 pm 5 pm 6 pm 7 pm 8 pm 9 pm 10 pm 11 pm 0 10 20 30.A US-bound historical border wait times dataset is available from the U.S. Department of Transportation's Bureau of Transportation Statistics. Please visit their Border Crossing/Entry Data web page to access their dataset. Publisher - Current Organization Name: Canada Border Services Agency. Licence: Open Government Licence - Canada.According to the Migration Policy Institute, about 1 million immigrants cross the United States border lawfully each year. Most immigrants come from Mexico, China, India, the Phili...Hours of Operation: 8 am-Midnight. Date: 4/25/2024. Commercial. GENERAL. FAST. Current Wait: 5 min At 11:00 am CDT, 5 lanes open. Average Wait: 13 min. Add to Favorites. Wait times measured from - Exit of toll booth in Mexico.Wait Times at the Milltown Border Crossings. Estimated wait time to reach the inspection booth. Updated hourly. Entering the U.S. at Calais Milltown - Open 8 am-4 pm Last Update: 4/29/2024 ... Milltown Border Crossing GPS coordinates - Latitude & Longitude: 45.170133, -67.296702;For cross border travel impacts due to COVID-19, ... processing goals CBP has set for travelers are: SENTRI/NEXUS Lanes: 15 minutes; Ready Lanes: 50% of general traffic lane wait times. For cross border travel impacts due to COVID-19, please visit the DHS website and USA.gov website. ... Lynden; Madawaska; Madawaska; Massena; Norton; Ogdensburg ...

London, the vibrant and bustling capital of England, is known for its rich history, iconic landmarks, and diverse cultural experiences. However, just beyond the city’s borders lies...WebThe State of Washington has 13 drivable border crossings across its 687 kilometers (427 miles) border with British Columbia, Canada. Aldergrove border crossing has the shortest wait time at 20 minutes Aldergrove border crossing has the shortest wait time at 20 minutes Travelers can check traffic conditions at the border from Canada by checking British Columbias webcams here.La Crosse Technology is a renowned brand that offers a wide range of innovative and reliable weather stations, clocks, thermometers, and other electronic devices. While their produ...A. Definition of Wait and Crossing Times To provide consistency in the discussion of technologies that support the monitoring and collection of wait time data in the border crossing environment, there are a few terms that must be defined. These definitions have been used in previous studies and will allow continuity of discussion in this document.From the border to Vancouver it will be approximately the same amount of time as crossing at Blaine. You will find it's a good tradeoff in time and sightseeing. Listening to 1130 AM will give you the difference in wait time between Blaine-Peace Arch vs Lynden-Aldergrove.

Steve shannon taylor.

SENTRI/NEXUS Lanes: 15 minutes, Ready Lanes: 50% of general traffic lane wait times. 0 - 30 minutes |. 31 - 60 minutes |. over 60 minutes. Canadian Border Ports of Entry. Port Name. Crossing Name. Commercial Vehicles. Passenger Vehicles.BC HighwayCams - Highway 13 (Canada/US Border Crossing) Please note all BC HwyCams use Pacific Time Zone (PT). Winter tires or chains are required on most routes in British Columbia from October 1 to April 30. For select highways not located through mountain passes and/or high snowfall areas, tire and chain requirements end March 31.The Lynden Crossing is the closest to Bellingham at 20 miles away. ... Both the Washington State Department of Transportation and CBSA keep an updated list of wait times at each border crossing on ...The Transportation Security Agency (TSA) and Customs and Border Protection (CBP) provide information on wait times at airports and border crossings. TSA screenings are detailed checks that can cause high wait times. Download My TSA application to check and post airport delays reported by fellow travelers in real time, …

Peace Arch Border Crossing. It's the Peace Arch Border Crossing, situated at the intersection of Highway 99 along with Interstate 5, is the main link between Blaine, Washington, and the Canadian town of Surrey. It's the third-busiest border crossing in the U.S. and Canada, with as many as 4800 vehicles crossing the border daily at peak times.The Dover to Ostend ferry crossing is one of the most popular routes in Europe, connecting England and Belgium. It is a great way to travel between these two countries, with a jour...For cross border travel impacts due to COVID-19, please visit the DHS website and USA.gov website. Infrastructure permitting, the processing goals CBP has set for travelers are: SENTRI/NEXUS Lanes: 15 minutes; Ready Lanes: 50% of general traffic lane wait times.Fortunately, the Canada Border Services Agency provides a helpful, frequently updated tracker of major border crossings, which notes slowdowns and gives current wait times. Bring the Proper ID. If arriving by land, follow the road signs to the Canadian border where you will encounter the first checkpoint for a Primary Inspection.Below you will find the wait times for every major border crossing into Canada and Mexico as well as useful info and FAQ's per port of entry. US Border Crossings Into Canada. ... Niagra Falls Lynden - Aldergrove Madawaska - Edmunston Bridge Norton - Stanhope Ogdensburg ...Line Chart Bar Chart ; Created with Highcharts 10.3.3 Time of Day Wait Time (min) Hourly Wait Times Trend vs Current Average Today Midnight 1 am 2 am 3 am 4 am 5 am 6 am 7 am 8 am 9 am 10 am 11 am Noon 1 pm 2 pm 3 pm 4 pm 5 pm Time of Day Wait Time (min) Hourly Wait Times Trend vs Current Average Today Midnight 1 am 2 am 3 am 4 am 5 am 6 am 7 am 8 am 9 am 10 am 11 am Noon 1 pm 2 pm 3 pm 4Duty free info. There is the Peace Arch Duty-Free Shop located on the Canadian side of the crossing. It is open between 7 am and 10 pm Monday to Thursday, and 7 am to 11 pm Friday to Sunday. Various allowances are in place for duty-free goods. Currently, visitors can bring $200 worth of goods from duty-free across the border during a 24-hour ...U.S. Customs And Border Protection - Lynden Port Of Entry is a Border crossing station located in 9949 WA-539, Lynden, Washington, US . The business is listed under border crossing station category. It has received 58 reviews with an average rating of 4.4 stars.Hours of Operation: 24 hrs/day Date: 5/3/2024 PassengerThe Dover to Ostend ferry crossing is one of the most popular routes in Europe, connecting England and Belgium. It is a great way to travel between these two countries, with a jour...

From the border to Vancouver it will be approximately the same amount of time as crossing at Blaine. You will find it's a good tradeoff in time and sightseeing. Listening to 1130 AM will give you the difference in wait time between Blaine-Peace Arch vs Lynden-Aldergrove.Wait Times at the Lynden and Aldergrove Border Crossing Webcam on Canadian Hwy 13 at the Lynden / Aldergrove Border Crossing Looking North at Hwy 13 and 0 Ave Webcam on Washington SR 539 at MP 12.5: Badger Rd Looking South. We all scream for ice cream!Real-time traffic conditions as of: Wed May. 01, 2024 10:10 PM; Peace Bridge: No Delay. 1/12 Open 46 min. 3/8 Open No Delay. 1/2 Open . L. Queenston: No Delay ... images indicate trend in wait times. Save time at the border by enrolling in the NEXUS program at ...This page contains current information on traffic conditions, border wait times, weather and road conditions for the Blaine / Surrey Pacific Highway border crossing between the U.S. and Canada. You may need to refresh this page periodically to get current information. For detailed background information on this border crossing, including times ...Average Wait: 10 min. Add to Favorites. Graph. Table. More... Line Chart. Bar Chart. Time of Day Wait Time (min) Hourly Wait Times Trend vs Current Average Today Midnight 1 am 2 am 3 am 4 am 5 am 6 am 7 am 8 am 9 am 10 am 11 am Noon 1 pm 2 pm 3 pm 4 pm 5 pm 6 pm 7 pm 8 pm 9 pm 10 pm 11 pm 0 10 20 30.Welcome to the Government of British Columbia Border Crossing Advanced Traveller Information System. This website provides current estimated border corssing delays for Route 99, Route 15, Route 13 and Route 11. ... Please use the pull down menus to the left to input your desired parameters for obtaining historical border wait time information ...Aldergrove, BC/Lynden, WA: 5 minutes: 5 minutes: 2024-05-03 10:00 PDT: Pacific Highway Surrey, BC/Blaine, WA: 5 minutes: 50 minutes: 2024-05-03 10:00 PDT: Douglas Surrey, BC/Blaine, WA: Not Applicable: 20 minutes: 2024-05-03 10:00 PDT: Boundary Bay Delta, BC/Point Roberts, WA: No Delay: 5 minutes: 2024-05-03 10:13 PDTHours of Operations & Wait Times in Champlain Lacolle. The Champlain – Lacolle border crossing is open to all vehicles 24/7 in both directions. NEXUS lanes are available in this port. Going into Canada, NEXUS lanes are open daily from 6 am to 12 midnight. Going into the US, NEXUS lanes are open daily from 6 am to 8 pm.

Filled with love smitten infatuated gaga over.

Jars 24th st leafly.

Information on U.S./B.C. border wait times. Cannabis. Effective October 17, 2018, non-medical cannabis is legal in Canada. Crossing the international border with it is illegal, as cannabis remains a controlled substance under U.S. federal law.. You may see warning signs at the federal border crossings in B.C.Border crossing wait times. Get data about wait times at major crossings into Canada, including Blaine (I-5 and SR 543), Lynden (SR 539) and Sumas (SR 9).US CBP is operational between the hours of 04:30 and 23:30. To conclude, crossing the US border from Vancouver can be a smooth and efficient process, with an average duration of 10-30 minutes. By planning your journey during slower periods and ensuring you have the necessary documentation, you can make your border crossing experience hassle-free.Before crossing this border, there are a few things travelers should be aware of. Please note during the COVID-19 situation some of the FAQ info below might be subject to change. Please let us know of any corrections required. Live and average Point Roberts wait times below remain accurate and are sourced from the US Customs & Border Patrol. A ...Borders Wait Time provides real-time information on traffic congestion and wait times at the San Ysidro PedWest border between Mexico and the USA. Stay up-to-date with current wait times and average wait times for commercial vehicles, passenger vehicles, and pedestrians at the San Ysidro PedWest border crossing.U.S. Customs And Border Protection - Lynden Port Of Entry is a Border crossing station located in 9949 WA-539, Lynden, Washington, US . The business is listed under border crossing station category. It has received 58 reviews with an average rating of 4.4 stars.Bar Chart. Time of Day Wait Time (min) Hourly Wait Times Trend vs Current Average Today Midnight 1 am 2 am 3 am 4 am 5 am 6 am 7 am 8 am 9 am 10 am 11 am Noon 1 pm 2 pm 3 pm 4 pm 5 pm 6 pm 7 pm 8 pm 9 pm 10 pm 11 pm 0 10 20 30.A US-bound historical border wait times dataset is available from the U.S. Department of Transportation's Bureau of Transportation Statistics. Please visit their Border Crossing/Entry Data web page to access their dataset. Publisher - Current Organization Name: Canada Border Services Agency. Licence: Open Government Licence - Canada.Current Wait: 0 min At 3:00 am EDT, 2 lanes open. Average Wait: 0 min. Add to Favorites. Graph. Table. More... Line Chart. Bar Chart. Time of Day Wait Time (min) Hourly Wait Times Trend vs Current Average Today Midnight 1 am 2 am 3 am 4 am 5 am 6 am 7 am 8 am 9 am 10 am 11 am Noon 1 pm 2 pm 3 pm 4 pm 5 pm 6 pm 7 pm 8 pm 9 pm 10 pm 11 pm 0 10 20 30.Aldergrove, BC/Lynden, WA: 5 minutes: 5 minutes: 2024-05-03 10:00 PDT: Pacific Highway Surrey, BC/Blaine, WA: 5 minutes: 50 minutes: 2024-05-03 10:00 PDT: Douglas Surrey, BC/Blaine, WA: Not Applicable: 20 minutes: 2024-05-03 10:00 PDT: Boundary Bay Delta, BC/Point Roberts, WA: No Delay: 5 minutes: 2024-05-03 10:13 PDT ….

Always check our page with current road conditions, weather, traffic, and border wait times so you know what is happening when you are heading to the Lynden / Aldergrove … Sumas Border Crossing Wait Times & FAQ’s. Connecting the cities of Sumas in Washington and Abbotsford in British Columbia, the Sumas Abbotsford border crossing is one of several crossings from Washington State into BC. Located 43 miles east of Vancouver it can be reached using British Columbia Highway 11 in Canada or Washington State Route 9 ... aldergrove border crossing map. Helping facilitate your construction project. east st louis flyers football state championships. closest airport to secrets huatulco resort & spa; aldergrove border crossing map. October 26, 2022When are the bridges open? The Paso Del Norte Bridge is open 24 hours a day. The wait times average at 30 minutes, with the peak wait times being around 50 minutes. The Ysleta crossing is open all day every day. The Zaragoza bridge wait times average around 40 minutes and can reach as long as an hour at peak times.May 12, 2020 · There are four border crossing options when driving between Seattle, WA, to Vancouver, B.C. They are from west to east: Peace Arch; the Pacific Highway, or "Truck Crossing" as it's commonly known; Lynden/Aldergrove and Sumas/Huntingdon. The first bit of advice is to check Northbound Border Wait Times to see current waits at each crossing. Canada Border Times represents an option that allows you to know the waiting time that exists in the international crossing bridges between the United States and Canada, where you have the opportunity to check the current wait times, share pictures of the actual wait line, check the cameras and analyze your options for the trip.Vancouver Border Wait Times. There are more than a dozen entry points into British Columbia, Canada from Washington State. Most of them are lightly used with the majority of traffic passing through the Vancouver area border crossings in Blaine, Point Roberts, Sumas and Lynden. Of the crossings in Blaine the Peace Arch border crossing is the ...CONTACT. Phone:604-538-3222. [email protected]. www.westcoastdutyfree.com. 111 - 176th Street Surrey, BC, V3S 9S4, Canada. Victoria B.C. --- West Coast Duty Free Store. After arriving at the Tsawwassen Ferry Terminal, follow the causeway to Route 17N (left). Right at Hwy 99 South towards Seattle. Lynden border crossing wait time, Hours of Operations & Wait Times in Peace Bridge. The Peace Bridge border crossing is open 24/7 to all vehicles in both directions. It is one of the busiest ports between US and Canada. NEXUS lanes are available on this bridge. Into Canada, the NEXUS lane is open 24/7. A second NEXUS lane will be open from Monday to Friday from 3 am to 6 am., Click here for all Wait Times and Lanes Open. Cameras. Peace Arch; Pacific Highway; Aldergrove; Abbotsford; White Rock; Import Now, La Crosse weather stations are renowned for their accuracy and reliability when it comes to providing real-time weather information. However, understanding all the features and fun..., Border crossing station in Lynden, Washington . Estimated Budget: $90 million -$100 million . Project Overview . The Kenneth G. Ward Land Port of Entry is a limited-service port of entry, operating 16 hours daily serving personal vehicles (POV), buses, and limited commercial truck traffic between Lynden, Washington and Aldergrove, British Columbia., For cross border travel impacts due to COVID-19, please visit the DHS website and USA.gov website. Infrastructure permitting, the processing goals CBP has set for travelers are: SENTRI/NEXUS Lanes: 15 minutes; Ready Lanes: 50% of general traffic lane wait times., Hours of Operation: 24 hrs/day Date: 4/30/2024 Passenger, Canadian Border Ports of Entry . Alexandria Bay - Thousand Islands Bridge; Blaine - Pacific Highway; ... Lynden; Madawaska; Madawaska; Massena; Norton; Ogdensburg; Pembina; ... Wait Times - May 2, 2024. Time Today (min) Average (min) BORDER NOTICE Information not available., Canadian Border Ports of Entry . Alexandria Bay - Thousand Islands Bridge; Blaine - Pacific Highway; ... Lynden; Madawaska; Madawaska; Massena; Norton; Ogdensburg; Pembina; ... Wait Times - Apr 25, 2024. Time Today (min) Average (min) BORDER NOTICE Information not available., Hours of Operations & Wait Times in Porthill Rykerts. The US port of entry is open daily from 7 am to 11 pm. The Canadian border station, on the other hand, is open to travelers daily from 8 am to 12 am starting on the first Saturday in November to the second Saturday in March. From the second Sunday in March to the first Sunday in November ..., The Transportation Security Agency (TSA) and Customs and Border Protection (CBP) provide information on wait times at airports and border crossings. TSA screenings are detailed checks that can cause high wait times. Download My TSA application to check and post airport delays reported by fellow travelers in real time, …, 3. Local Port Contacts: The cheapest way to get from Seattle to Lynden-Aldergrove Border Crossing costs only $27, and the quickest way takes just 1 hour. The road begins near the Peace Arch Border Crossing, and continues eastward for 28.9 kilometres (18.0 mi), with gaps around the Pacific Highway and LyndenAldergrove Border Crossings. [5], Follow Imperial Ave south in Calexico. You will pass the friendship park just before reaching the border crossing. Follow the signs through the border crossing. Pay attention to the signs and stop for inspection if flagged. The aduana for your TIP is located on the left after you clear the covered awning area., SUMAS — Both the Sumas and Lynden border stations are slated for major rebuild in 2026-28, and the federal agency in charge came to Sumas the evening of Monday, Nov. 6 for a first round of public input on the early plans. About 120 people gathered in the American Legion hall and voiced a range of concerns about the proposal to four officials ..., When are the bridges open? The Paso Del Norte Bridge is open 24 hours a day. The wait times average at 30 minutes, with the peak wait times being around 50 minutes. The Ysleta crossing is open all day every day. The Zaragoza bridge wait times average around 40 minutes and can reach as long as an hour at peak times., Border crossing station in Lynden, Washington . Estimated Budget: $90 million -$100 million . Project Overview . The Kenneth G. Ward Land Port of Entry is a limited-service port of entry, operating 16 hours daily serving personal vehicles (POV), buses, and limited commercial truck traffic between Lynden, Washington and Aldergrove, British Columbia., You should expect delays as long as 2 hours at major border crossings. Projected Peak Wait Times for the Canadian Thanksgiving Holiday ... while Lynden / Aldergrove and Sumas / Abbotsford tend to be ... more than 3,200 travelers returned to Canada through the border crossing at Coutts on the Monday holiday, while just 1,600 …, Created with Highcharts 10.3.3 Time of Day Wait Time (min) Hourly Wait Times Trend vs Current Time of Day Wait Time (min) Hourly Wait Times Trend vs Current, Before crossing this border, there are a few things travelers should be aware of. Please note during the COVID-19 situation some of the FAQ info below might be subject to change. Please let us know of any corrections required. Live and average Point Roberts wait times below remain accurate and are sourced from the US Customs & Border Patrol. A ..., Borderlineups – Border wait times. Try Comparizon to compare American and Canadian prices on Amazon!, 6 days ago · WSDOT Travel Center. Border crossing wait times. Get data about wait times at major crossings into Canada, including Blaine (I-5 and SR 543), Lynden (SR 539) and Sumas (SR 9). , By being prepared and well-informed, you can effectively anticipate potential delays and make necessary adjustments to your travel plans, ensuring a smoother and less stressful border crossing experience. Borders Wait Time provides real-time information on traffic congestion and wait times at the Lukeville border between Mexico and the USA., Bar Chart. Time of Day Wait Time (min) Hourly Wait Times Trend vs Current Average Today Midnight 1 am 2 am 3 am 4 am 5 am 6 am 7 am 8 am 9 am 10 am 11 am Noon 1 pm 2 pm 3 pm 4 pm 5 pm 6 pm 7 pm 8 pm 9 pm 10 pm 11 pm 0 10 20 30., Line Chart Bar Chart ; Created with Highcharts 10.3.3 Time of Day Wait Time (min) Hourly Wait Times Trend vs Current Average Today Midnight 1 am 2 am 3 am 4 am 5 am 6 am 7 am 8 am 9 am 10 am , The Lynden Crossing is the closest to Bellingham at 20 miles away. ... Both the Washington State Department of Transportation and CBSA keep an updated list of wait times at each border crossing on ..., The Wild Horse border crossing is a very quiet port of entry that connects the communities of Havre, Montana and Medicine Hat, Alberta. This remote crossing observes seasonal hours of operation due to the low volume of traffic that passes through during winter months. Based on data gathered by the Bureau of Transportation Statistics, less than 50 vehicles passed through this port per day in 2015., Pick Your Border Crossing. For Customized Info like Allowances, Wait Times and Services. BRITISH COLUMBIA. West Coast - Surrey 15 Aldergrove 13; Abbotsford 11; Osoyoos 97; Tobacco Plains - Roosville 93; Kingsgate 95; Peace Arch - Surrey 99 ALBERTA. Altan - Coutts 4;, Created with Highcharts 10.3.3 Time of Day Wait Time (min) Hourly Wait Times Trend vs Current Time of Day Wait Time (min) Hourly Wait Times Trend vs Current, Created with Highcharts 10.3.3 Time of Day Wait Time (min) Hourly Wait Times Trend vs Current Time of Day Wait Time (min) Hourly Wait Times Trend vs Current, Times may take a few seconds to load, Home Border Wait Times Lynden Aldergrove Border Crossing Wait Times & FAQs. l>0L\`A0; H2~U"#zAH {qX #w 9Z_ [2] The designation was pushed north to Highway 401, the new freeway alignment of the Trans-Canada Highway, by 1965. There is no cost to cross the border between Lynden and Aldergrove. [4], aldergrove border crossing map. aldergrove border crossing map, The Lynden Crossing is the closest to Bellingham at 20 miles away. ... Both the Washington State Department of Transportation and CBSA keep an updated list of wait times at each border crossing on ..., Line Chart Bar Chart ; Created with Highcharts 10.3.3 Time of Day Wait Time (min) Hourly Wait Times Trend vs Current Average Today Midnight 1 am 2 am 3 am 4 am 5 am Time of Day , Santa Teresa Border Crossing Wait Times & FAQ's. The port of entry at Santa Teresa is the newest crossing on the US-Mexico border. It was built to try and ease the congestion at the crossing points in El Paso. To help the border in achieving this goal there are plans to increase the capacity, although a date has not been set for these ...